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Larry Cohen Talks about Bernard Herrmann

Dennis Fischer

Janelle Webb (the former Mrs. Cohen), Larry Cohen and Bernard Herrmann (1972)
Originally published in Soundtrack Magazine Vol.11 / No.43 / 1992
Text reproduced by kind permission of the editor, Luc Van de Ven

During the 1970's, Larry Cohen, writer-director of such films as Q: THE WINGED SERPENT, THE STUFF and IT'S ALIVE, became close friends with one of the greatest film composers of all time, the late, great Bernard Herrmann. The following recollection is taken from a recent interview with Cohen in which he talks about Herrmann's tempestuous relationships with Alfred Hitchcock, the studios, and his last years.


Bernard Herrmann was like a family member. I was with him the last night of his life. We took him back to the Universal Sheraton, before he died.


When he and Hitchcock had their fight, that was in a period where everybody was trying to go away from orchestral scores and go towards rock scores or country-western scores or scores that had hit songs. At the end of the picture, a song would be sung over the end titles. No matter how dramatic the picture was or what the subject was, some inane song sung by Johnny Mathis or somebody would end up over the final crawl of the titles.


That was just not Bennie's way, he couldn’t work like that. When they started telling him they wanted a hit song in the picture, he couldn’t stand it. He was very outspoken and would never give anybody any quarter. He would never, for a second, hold back any of his feelings. He just lambasted them right and left, so people were scared of him. They were afraid of him. They don't want somebody who's going to tell them the truth all the time.


That was one of the reasons he had the problem with Hitchcock. It wasn't so much over that one score, TORN CURTAIN, but rather that he was one of Hitchcock's closest friends and one of the only people who would tell Hitchcock the truth, and the truth was that when Hitchcock went to Universal, his pictures deteriorated entirely and tremendously. He no longer was making good films any more. TORN CURTAIN was a bad picture, and TOPAZ was awful, but even Hitch knew it. Joan Harrison told me he was extremely unhappy with the picture even as he was making it. He knew it was no good.


He just didn't make good pictures over there, and he knew it. The closest he had to a good picture was when he went back to England and made FRENZY. FRENZY at least had some scenes which were like the old Hitchcock. It was just cast wrong, that's all. You needed a star in the Jon Finch part, and Hitch always worked better if he had stars. If he'd had Michael Caine in that part, it would have been different. Jon Finch was just so blah. He didn’t have the charisma to carry the picture. But the potatosack scene was fabulous!


Bennie told me that when Hitchcock came to England to make FRENZY, somebody from Universal called him up and said, “Hitch is in town, would you be interested in writing the music for FRENZY?” And Bennie said, characteristically, “If Hitch wants me, why doesn’t Hitch call me?” and that was the end of it. Somebody tried to be an intermediary, and I’m sure probably called him with Hitch's permission, but he didn't want to hear from that guy, he wanted Hitch to call him himself. That's the way he was, so nothing came of it. He would have been willing to go back to work for Hitch if Hitch had called him.


Ironically enough, he said he hated Universal. He felt Universal had destroyed his relationship with Hitchcock. He said he used to be very close to him, but then Hitchcock started getting very wealthy and became a big stock holder in Universal and two nights a week he would eat with Wasserman and then another two nights a week he would eat with Schreiber, and then Wasserman would come to his house, and every night of the week he was dining with Universal people and never seeing anybody outside of the Universal hierarchy, and they were making him very rich and his pictures were getting worse and worse with each picture.


He was doing things like doing the commercials for the Universal tour. He was doing the TV series, and he traded his ownership in the series for stock. He got a lot of money, but his pictures were deteriorating and he knew it. He did not have many friends and he was very isolated, and Bennie was one of the only people who knew, and who could talk to him on an equal level. The Universal people didn't even want Bennie around. They said “this guy can't give you what you need, which is a hit song.” That’s what it was all about.


Then after that happened, Bennie, who was always an Anglophile anyway, went off to England with Norma, his beautiful, young new wife. I'd always felt that the young wife helped alienate Hitchcock. Bennie was not unlike Hitchcock, being heavyset and not what you would consider an attractive man, yet Bennie was a ladies' man - he would always have more than his share of woman, and he'd been married three times and had just gotten himself a young wife who was thirty or forty years his junior. Hitch was an extremely repressed man who wanted to have extra-marital affairs but was just afraid to do it. He was getting old, and Bennie walks in with his new wife, so it was just one more thorn in Hitch's side.


After the Hitchcock break-up, Bennie moved to England with his wife and they got a nice house in Regents Park. They'd picked up a stray dog on Ventura Blvd., which they’d named Alpy and took with him, and Bennie would walk the dog every morning at 5 a.m. in Regents Park, and he got work. It wasn't the kind of work he'd gotten before, but he did British films, a Hayley Mills picture and a couple of other films, and then, by and by, what happened was that young guys would start writing him letters asking if he would help them, and he did SISTERS for Brian DePalma and he came back to do THE EXORCIST.


He went to New York. I'd made IT’S ALIVE and I prevailed upon the people at Warners who knew him, to see if he would possibly be available to do the score for me, and they said he's not available because he's doing THE EXORCIST. He flew to New York to meet with Friedkin, who showed him the picture. Afterwards, Friedkin said to him, according to Bennie, “I want you to write me a better score than you wrote for CITIZEN KANE.” And then Bennie said, “Then why didn't you make a better picture than CITIZEN KANE?” That was the end of that relationship. Bennie returned to England and they got records to score it with.


I heard from the people at the Warner Bros. music department that Bennie returned to England. They got me his phone number and I called him trans-atlantic and said, “Look, I understand you might be able to do a picture.” He said, “Well, send me the picture.” So I sent a black-and-white dupe of the picture to him in London, and a few weeks later I got a call from him, saying “I like this picture, so I'll do it.” So we made a deal and we talked a couple of times on the phone.


We had one fight. There was a scene where the characters are watching television and there's a Roadrunner cartoon on. I asked if he could write a source cue for the cartoon. He said to me, “I don't write music for cartoons, you’d better get yourself another composer.” I said quickly, “Wait a minute, don't quit on me. If you don't want to write music for the cartoon, don’t write it. I'll use sound effects or something. Let's not have a falling of the ways over something like this. You write what you want. I'm not coming over to tell you what to write. Write what you want to write and I'm sure I’ll be happy with it.”


He said, “Don't you want to come for the scoring sessions?” I said, “I'll come if you want me to come.” He said, “Of course I want you to come.” So right away, by not trying to force myself on him, I was invited. So I went as an invited person rather than as a person trying to exert my authority on him.


Then we met. We picked him up at his house, met him and his wife, and by the end of the day, he was telling us we should move to London and stay there, so we did. After he finished the picture, we actually moved to London and stayed there about eight or nine months, and saw him three or four times a week. Every day he phoned. He was getting to be like a grandfather or somebody, he had to call up every day to see how the kids were and how everybody was.


I couldn't believe it - what a sweet, nice man this was, and then when he died how everybody said what a terrible, mean man he was. Even at the funeral, everybody got up and had to make remarks about how difficult he was and how unpleasant to people he was, and how assertive he was. And this was not the Bennie that we knew. We knew him as an entirely different person, and he couldn't have been sweeter.


But the odd thing was, he hated Universal for coming between him and Hitchcock; he comes back to America, and where do they put him? On the backlot of Universal with a window overlooking the lot so he could see Hitchcock’s bungalow from the window. And that's where he died - on the backlot at Universal. Strange irony.


The next morning we got a phone call from Martin Scorsese's girl friend; they'd gone over to have breakfast with him, and he'd been found dead. We came over immediately. John Williams got over there, and we brought back Norma, his wife, and she stayed here with us for the period after his death, and everybody came over here to pay their respects after the funeral.


So we had DePalma and Scorsese and all those people. They came back here for the traditional food that you always put out. Truffaut didn't come back. He showed up at the funeral very strangely, way in the back of the place where the service was held, very unobtrusive. Everybody else was down in front, and he slipped in for the service and then slipped away again. I think he flew all the way over from Paris. I spoke to him and he wouldn’t come back. He said, “Oh no, I have to leave. I have a plane.” So I think he flew all the way over for the service and then flew right back.


The rest of them came over here and the rabbi wanted to have a minyan. In the Jewish religion, ten adult males have to be present to say a prayer - in order to have a congregation you have to have ten Jewish men over 13 years of age. So the rabbi was trying to have this prayer and he couldn't find ten Jewish men in this group that came here, most of them were gentiles. So finally, he said, what the hell, let's do it anyway.


So he gave out the yamulkas, the skullcaps, and DePalma put one on, and Robert DeNiro put one on, and Scorsese put one on, and Norman Lloyd and we all stood around in a circle in the living room. DePalma said, “What do I do?” I said, “You just shake your head a little bit like this, up and down.” So there were all these Italians posing as Jews in a circle in my living room giving a funeral oration for Bernard Herrmann. I wish I had a photograph of that. Bennie would have loved it.


He died the day before Christmas, and his wife came here for Christmas dinner and she drew a cartoon of everybody sitting at the dinner table, and she drew Bennie there, too. Even though he'd died the day before, she drew him into the group.


Out of these movies you get these personal relationships and these personal things that are very important to you and make it all worthwhile. I know that if I'd just written screenplays, I'd be in here with the door closed and I wouldn't have met all these people. To me, having met all these wonderful people is one of the great plusses of having directed the films. The same thing with Miklos Rozsa, who is truly a wonderful man. These are the great people which you meet out of this job.

by Pascal Dupont 10 May, 2024
Charles Allan Gerhardt English version adapted by Doug Raynes - FRENCH VERSION AND COLLECTION had a reputation as a great conductor, record producer and musical arranger. His major work at RCA on the Classic Film Scores series earned him recognition from film music devotees of Hollywood’s Golden Age, as well as other renowned conductors of his day. Born on February 6, 1927 in Detroit, Michigan, Charles Gerhardt developed a passion for music and percussion instruments from an early age. At the age of five, he took piano lessons, and by the age of nine, had established a solid reputation as an orchestrator and composer. He spent his early school years in Little Rock, Arkansas, then after 10 years, having completed his schooling, moved with his family to Illinois for his military duties, he served in the U.S. Navy during World War II as a chaplain's aide in the Aleutian Islands, then became an active member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. He went on to study at the University of Illinois, at the College of William and Mary, and later at the University of Southern California. Throughout his time at school Gerhardt was attracted not only to music, but also to the sciences. Passionate about the art of recording, he joined Westminster Records for five years, until the company ceased operations, and then joined Bell Sound. One day, he received a phone call from George Marek to meet with the heads of Reader's Digest, to discuss producing recordings for their mail-order record business; a contact that was to secure his musical future and a rich career spanning more than 30 years. Gerhardt's first job for Reader's Digest was to produce a record; “A Festival of Light Classical Music”; a 12 LP box set that he produced in full. One of Gerhardt's finest projects was the production of another 12 LP box set, “Les Trésores de la Grande Musique (Treasury of Great Music)”, featuring the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by some of the leading figures of the day: Charles Munch to Bizet and Tchaikovsky, Rudolf Kempe to Strauss and Respighi, Josef Krips to Mozart and Haydn, Antal Dorati to Strauss and Berlioz, Brahms 4th Symphony by Fritz Reiner and Sibelius’ 2nd Symphony by Sir John Barbirolli. In the 1950s he conducted works by Vladimir Horowitz, Wanda Landowska, Kirsten Flagstad and William Kapeli. In the early 1960s, Gerhardt lived in England, where he made most of his recordings, but kept a foothold in the United States, mainly in New York. Often, when he went to the United States after a period of recording sessions, he would stop off in Baltimore and spend some time listening to cassettes of his new recordings. Gerhardt loved percussion instruments, especially tam-tams. One of his favorite recordings was the Columbia mono disc of Scriabin's Poem of Ecstasy, with Dimitri Mitropoulos and the New York Philharmonic. He had great admiration and respect for the many conductors he worked with, starting with Arturo Toscanini, with whom he worked for several years before the Maestro's death. It was Toscanini who suggested that Gerhardt become a conductor, which he did! His career as an orchestra director began when he had to replace a conductor who failed to show up for rehearsals. It was a position he would later occupy for various recording sessions and occasional concerts. His classical recordings include works by Richard Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Ravel, Debussy, Walton and Howard Hanson. Hired by RCA Records, he transferred 78 rpm recordings of Enrico Caruso and other artists to 33 rpm. He took part in recordings by soprano singer Kirsten Flagstad and pianist Vladimir Horowitz. He worked with renowned conductors such as Fritz Reiner, Leopold Stokowski and Charles Munch, from whom he learned the tricks of the trade. Still at RCA, he assisted Arturo Toscanini, with whom he perfected his conducting skills. Then, in 1960, he produced recordings for RCA and Reader’s Digest in London, and joined forces with sound engineer Kenneth Wilkinson of Decca Records (RCA's European subsidiary), The two men got on very well and shared a passion for recording and sound quality, making an incredible number of recordings over a 30-year period. Also in 1960, RCA and Reader's Digest entrusted him with the production of a 12-disc LP box set entitled “ Lumière du Classique (A Festival of Light Classical Music) ”, sold exclusively by mail order. With a budget of $250,000, Gerhardt assumed total control of the project: repertoire, choice of orchestras and production. He recorded in London, Vienna and Paris, and hired such top names as Sir Adrian Boult, Massimo Freccia, Sir Alexander Gibson and René Leibowitz. The success of this project, in terms of both musical quality and sound, earned him recognition from his employers. Other projects of similar scope followed… A boxed set of Beethoven's symphonic works with René Leibowitz and The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. A boxed set of Rachmaninoff's works for piano and orchestra with Earl Wild, Jascha Horenstein and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, the above mentioned 12 LP disc set “Trésor de la Grande Musique (Treasury of Great Music)” with the Royal Philharmonic conducted by some of the greatest directors of the time: Fritz Reiner, Charles Munch, Rudolf Kempe, Sir John Barbirolli, Sir Malcolm Sargent, Antal Dorati and Jascha Horenstein, with whom Gerhardt had sympathized. In January 1964 in London, Gerhardt joined forces with Sidney Sax, instrumentalist and conductor, to form a freelance orchestra. This successful group went on to join the National Philharmonic Orchestra of London, an impressive line-up that would later become Jerry Goldsmith's orchestra of choice. With Peter Munves, head of RCA's classical division, he conceived the idea of recording an album devoted exclusively to the film music of Erich Wolfgang Korngold, one of his favorite composers. Enthusiastic about the project, Munves gave Gerhardt carte blanche, and was offered a helping hand by George Korngold, producer and son of the famous Viennese composer, who owned all the copies of his father's scores. The Adventure Began : The Sea Hawk: Classic Film Scores of Erich Wolfgang Korngold. For this first disc, Gerhardt selected 10 scores by Korngold, which he recorded in the Kingsway Hall Studio in London, renowned for its excellent acoustics. The disc thus benefits from optimal recording conditions, favoring at the same time the performances of the National Philharmonic (and its leader, Sidney Sax), a formidable orchestra made up of London's finest musicians and freelance soloists. Each album was recorded in the same studio, with Kenneth Wilkinson as sound engineer and George Korngold as consultant/producer. As soon as it was released, the album's success received strong acclaim in classical music circles and received a feature in Billboard No. 37, a first in this category in December 1972. It took no less than a year to sell the first 10,000 copies in all the specialist record suppliers and the album went on to sell over 38,000 copies, making it the fifth best-selling album in the “classical” category in 1973. On the strength of this success, Peter Munves and RCA entrusted Charles Gerhardt with the production of further discs devoted to other world-renowned composers of Hollywood music. The program includes several albums dedicated to Max Steiner and Erich Wolfgang Korngold plus one each to Miklos Rozsa, Franz Waxman, Dimitri Tiomkin and Bernard Herrmann, followed by 3 volumes associated with specific film stars such as Bette Davis, Errol Flynn and Humphrey Bogart. Then, a disc devoted to Alfred Newman, a composer who was a pillar of the famous Hollywood sound, who Gerhardt admired and had met: “Newman was a charming man, full of good humor. He was friendly, fun and always had a joke. With his eternal black cigar in hand, he was a composer by trade, down-to-earth, discussed little about himself but was a first-rate advisor in my life. “ Gerhardt would consult certain composers in advance about how to recreate suites from their works, or when this wasn't possible, he would rearrange the suites himself and submit them to the composers for approval. "Some critics complained that my suites were too short, but my aim in the case of each album was to present a well-split 'portrait' of the composer, highlighting his many creative facets". Although Korngold, Newman and Steiner were no longer around to lend their support, Gerhardt was lucky enough to still work with Herrmann, Rózsa and Tiomkin as consultants who turned up at the recording studio to lend a hand. Gerhardt also had the idea of creating albums focusing on a single film star. Three specific volumes were devoted to music from the films of Humphrey Bogart, Errol Flynn and Bette Davis. Although these albums suffer from too great a diversity of genres, they still offer the chance to hear and discover rare and previously unpublished compositions. The best conceived album was arguably the one devoted to Bette Davis. Conscious of the important role played by music in her films, the legendary actress took part in the conception of the album, knowing that it favored scores by Max Steiner designed for Warner Bros. The Collection Begins ! Gerhardt's passion for certain composers knows no bounds, but he soon envisages a disc devoted to Miklos Rozsa, including suites for “Spellbound” and “The Red House”, one of his favorite scores, which he will exhume to create one of the longest suites in the series. At the same time, he received various fan wish lists and films to watch, such as “The Four Feathers”, which he had never seen and which gave him the opportunity to discover a splendid score by Miklos Rozsa that he had never heard before. He was disappointed, however, not to be able to conceive a longer “Spellbound” sequel for rights reasons. Despite RCA's full approval, Gerhardt realized that it was not easy to record film music in its original form, as few were ever edited, played and made available for rental. For The Sea Hawks album, things were simpler, as Georges Korngold had copies of his father's scores, and Warner Bros had also archived material in good condition. From the outset, Gerhardt encountered other major problems in the search for and discovery of scores hidden away in other studios, often with the unpleasant surprise of discovering missing or incomplete conductors, or others heavily modified by orchestrators during recording sessions, or the surprise of discovering, in certain cases, instrumentation information noted in shorthand on the edges of the conductor score. For the disc dedicated to Max Steiner, for example, the conductor score for “King Kong” had disappeared from the RKO archives, having been shipped in 1950 to poorly maintained warehouses in Los Angeles where it had become totally degraded and illegible. With the help of Georges Korngold, Gerhardt was able to reconstruct a substantial suite from the piano models left by Steiner at the time. This experience was repeated when the conductor score for Dimitri Tiomkin's “The Thing” was discovered in the same warehouse, in an advanced state of disintegration. Fortunately for Gerhardt, Tiomkin, who was still alive, had been able to provide precise piano maquettes with orchestration information in shorthand, revealing a complex and highly innovative style of writing. Tiomkin always composed at the piano, inscribing very specific information and signs on the edges of the scores in pencil, an ingenious system of his own invention that was difficult to decipher. “Revisiting the score of ‘The Thing from Another World’ was a complex task, involving experimental passages and an unorthodox orchestra. You can understand that I had a huge job on my hands. When I approached the recording sessions, it was not without some trepidation. However, the composer present made no criticism or comment on my work, and was delighted. He was delighted.” For “Gone With The Wind”, Steiner was against the idea of remaking a complete soundtrack, as he felt that too many passages were repeated. It was an opportunity for him to revisit his own score, integrating his favorite melodies. This synthesis gave him the opportunity to revitalize his music by eliminating the least interesting parts of the score. Conceived as long suites or isolated themes, the discs reflect the essence of the composers' work. The “Classic Film Scores” series by Franz Waxman, Bernard Herrmann and Miklos Rozsa etc will become a big hit with collectors. For Gerhardt, this will be an opportunity to unearth forgotten or rare scores such as Herrmann's “The White Witch” and “On a Dangerous Ground”, Hugo Friedhofer's “The Sun Also Rises” and early recordings for Waxman's “Prince Valliant” and Rozsa's “The Red House”, all with new, impeccable acoustics. For “Elisabeth and Essex”, Erich Korngold had already prepared a suite in the form of an Overture, which was given its world premiere in a theater. The suite for “The Adventures of Robin Hood” also pre-existed. Franz Waxman created his own suite for “A Place in the Sun”, which was also performed in concert. Dimitri Tiomkin, Miklos Rozsa and Bernard Herrmann acted as consultants and contributed arrangements to their scores. For the continuation of “White Witch Doctor”, Bernard Herrman added percussion to link the different musical tableaux. He did the same for the different parts of “Citizen Kane”. Miklos Rozsa saw an opportunity to add a male choir to the suite from “The Jungle Book”, based on an idea by Charles Gerhardt. For the record dedicated to Errol Flynn, Gerhardt re-orchestrated the theme “The Lights of Paris” from Hugo Friedhofer's “The Sun also Rises”, as the original was no longer available. “I wanted to go back to that time and systematically explore the very substance of the great film scores of the late 30s and 40s, sending them back directly to their images as dramatic entities. The desire to rediscover tunes we know and to take into account the contexts in which they were originally used. I decided to recreate these scores with their original orchestrations, and this could only be done by returning to the ultimate sources, as the composers had originally conceived them.” Keen to open up the collection to other genres, such as science fiction, Gerhardt dedicated two further albums to the series in 1992. The first featured contemporary sequels to “Star Wars” and “Close Encounters of the Third Kind”, promoting the work of John Williams, a leading composer of new film music. Then another called “The Spectacular World of Classic Film Scores”, presenting a disappointing compilation of scores that had already been recorded, except for the creation of a sequel to Dimitri Tiomkin's “The Thing From Another World” and Daniele Amfitheatrof's rarely heard theme “Dance of the Seven Voiles” from Salome. In 1978, the collection was published in Spain by RCA Cinema Treasures. In the USA and Europe, the Classic Film Scores LP series was reissued in the early 80s with a black art deco cover and colored star index. All Volumes in the First Series Were Reissued : By the end of the '80s, the series was running out of steam, and Charles Gerhardt planned to relaunch his collection with albums dedicated to famous American actresses, a new volume for Max Steiner and the Western, a volume reconstructing the score of Waxman's “The Bride of Frankenstein”, followed by volumes devoted to Alex North, Hugo Friedhofer, Victor Young and Elmer Bernstein... But RCA would not support Gerhardt in these projects, preferring to release the collection on CD for the first time. In early 1990, RCA asked Gerhardt to supervise and co-produce the collection, which he saw as an opportunity to revisit some of the volumes, inserting tracks that had not appeared on the LPs or extending certain suites. The volume devoted to Franz Waxman, “Sunset Boulevard”, was the first to be released. The CD did not benefit from any particular promotion, but sold very well, as did the other CDs that followed... A collection marked by a new design in silver pantone. The CDs series was reissued in 2010, still under the RCA Red Seal label, but distributed by Sony Music Entertainment. RCA Victor's Classic Films Scores series represents a unique collection in the history of film music recordings. 14 recordings of rare quality, produced by Georges Korngold and Charles Gerhardt to become one of the revelations of the reissue phenomenon. Other Concepts... Later, Gerhardt spent most of his time in London, continuing to make recordings. After retiring from RCA in 1986, he returned to independent work for Readers Digest and other record labels, a position he held in production and musical supervision until 1997. Since 1991 he had lived in Redding, California. In later years, he did not appear professionally, refusing all public invitations because of his desire to remain discreet. In his entourage he was close to three cousins, Lenore L Engel and Elizabeth Anne Schuetze, both living in San Antonio, and cousin Steven W Gerhardt of St. Pete Beach, Florida. In late November 1998 Charles Gerhardt was diagnosed with brain cancer and died of complications following surgery on February 22, 1999. He was 72 years old. Thus ends this tribute to Charles Gerhardt and the most famous collection of film music records: The Classic Film Scores series.
by Doug Raynes 24 Jan, 2024
Following on from Tadlow’s epic recording of El Cid, the same team – Nic Raine conducting and James Fitzpatrick producing – have turned their attention to a completely different type of epic film for the definitive recording of Ernest Gold’s Academy Award winning score for Otto Preminger’s Exodus (1960). The score is something of a revelation because aside from the main theme, the music has received little attention through recordings. Additionally the sound quality of the original soundtrack LP was disappointing and much music was deleted or cut from the film.
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