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An Interview with Leonard Rosenman

Daniel Mangodt

An Interview with Leonard Rosenman by Daniel Mangodt

First published in Soundtrack Magazine Vol.14 / No.56 / 1995

Text reproduced by kind permission of the editor, Luc Van de Ven

What does it feel like to be a member of the jury in a major film festival?

I adore it. We get along very well. The films are terrific and I’m having a lot of fun.


Are some of your concert works based on your film music?

No. A lot of film music is based on the concert pieces. They never come together, they are entirely opposite. When I lecture in the universities, I never teach films, I always teach concert music.


You scored the first two James Dean films, but you didn’t score GIANT…


I was busy doing another film, and I think the director George Stevens also wanted another composer. I didn’t really care about it. At that time I used to do the score for a film and go home to New York. I didn’t even live in Los Angeles. It was very alien to me. Most people who write film music had ambitions to be in film music. I had no ambition. It was an accident.


Scoring more than 100 films and television movies is rather more than an accident…


Right. That’s true, except it’s much less than most of the people who work in films. I’ve done 30 films. John Williams has done a hundred. I’m not interested. Sometimes I take off for 2 years, go to Italy or conduct, teach or write my own work. That’s what I do. But then it’s hard to come back, because they ask what I have been doing the last five years. I say; I wrote a violin concerto, a string quartet. “Oh, you have been unemployed”, they reply (laughs). It’s amusing and stupid at the same time.


People like to put a label on a composer.


They don’t know anything about music, or films. There are experts that are doing the job in secret. There are many people who have 30 people writing music for them. They can’t read or write music.


You mean ghost writers?


Yes. They don’t call themselves ghost writers; they call themselves orchestrators, because it’s illegal in the union to be a ghost writer.


Because it’s bad for the image of film music?


But the films themselves are awful. Today you have studios that are only doing these kinds of action films. They’re paying 20,000,000 dollars to an actor. It’s insanity. Films are going downhill. The only good films today are either independent films or foreign films. We’ve been seeing them here. Much better than anything that comes out of Hollywood.


You scored a film called SEPTEMBER 30, 1955…


Yes, about Jimmy (Dean). It was very weird. It was like going back in a time machine. It was done by a dear friend of mine, James Bridges. It was a true story based upon his experiences in college the day James Dean died. He wanted me to do an adaptation of my own music. It was very strange. I began to do EDEN and REBEL in counterpoint at the same time. I used the whole last scene of EAST OF EDEN; that began the film. We had to rerecord it. It was a lovely film, but the casting wasn’t good.


For PORK CHOP HILL you used a Chinese folk tune…


It was my idea from the beginning. I wanted to use a folk tune. I looked it up and I picked this one. It was free. I formed a kind of a march based on that. I haven’t heard that score in years, but they tell me it’s good (laughs).


Between 1962 and 1966 you stayed in Italy…


I lived in Italy, conducted mostly (the Santa Cecilia Orchestra) and I did all the music for the World War II series COMBAT. I just loved it and I wanted to stay there, but then my friend Dick Fleischer, who was my next door neighbor, called me and said he wanted me to do FANTASTIC VOYAGE.


It’s one of your favorite scores.


It’s one of the most interesting ones. I used Klangfarben. Not only was it avant-garde in terms of music, but it was also very different dramatically. In the film people went into the body in reel 5 and I didn’t want to use music until reel 5. Everybody said: “What are we going to do?” And I said, “Just use special effects and no music”. They tried it out and they loved it.


Using music in the first part would have been wrong.


Absolutely, but most people in Hollywood wouldn’t have known the difference. But it worked very well.


Nowadays there is too much wall-to-wall music in films.


I absolutely agree with you. I was the first one to start silence in films. At the time of EAST OF EDEN, Warner insisted every film had music from the first frame till the last. Just boring. The score was very revolutionary, because it had a lot of silence. You must respect what is going on in the film.


In EAST OF EDEN the father hums his theme before it is later heard in the music…


We arranged that. I wanted the music to be inaccessible from the dramatic framework, in other words, you couldn’t extract it from the film. That’s why it wasn’t played anywhere in the concert, because I didn’t make any concert version of it. Now that EAST OF EDEN is back, I’ve made a concert version of it that will be recorded later this year.


What about the dramatic use of the music you wrote for the Planetarium scene in REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE?

I played it as a drama, because the end of the world was a kind of symbolic end of the world and later on became the end of the world for the kid, because he died. That’s why I didn’t want the thing to stand out as a different scene.


You’ve written music for a lot of ‘second-rate’ films.


That’s because, when I’ve finished working on my own work, I want to get back and sometimes the only thing that’s open is a film that I know is not even good, but I need the money to pay my leisure, to do my own stuff.


You did HELLFIGHTERS.


John Williams was supposed to do that, but he got appendicitis and I was asked to step in. It had a good ‘western’ theme.


In one case you didn’t do the sequel, but the first movie: A MAN CALLED HORSE. You used a lot of ethnic music.


I collected a lot of original music for a museum from the Sioux Indians. I lived with them for a while. I wanted to make a real combination of drama and their music. Everyone was fascinated, because they had never heard a score like this. It sounded very simple, but it was very complicated.


You didn’t score the sequel.


My best friend Irwin Kershner, who directed the sequel, asked me to score it. But Kershner was never able to make up his mind about what kind of score he wanted. One moment he wanted oriental music, very heavenly, slight and spiritual; two minutes later he wanted violent music with drums and so on. “What about violent spiritual music” I asked (laughs).


You also did CROSS CREEK.


I present 2 scenes from this film in my speech later this week (at the seminar). These two scenes are really extraordinary. We planned them for film and music the way music really tells a story and if there is no music in those scenes, you don’t know what is going on. It was a wonderful film, but the merchandising was so terrible that nobody saw it.


You once called television the ‘schlock’ medium…


I don’t do television any more. I used to do a lot. It’s the most idiotic medium in the world. If I was starving to death I wouldn’t do it. There were some wonderful things (FRIENDLY FIRE, SYBIL), but today they couldn’t be done anymore. You have no idea how illiterate those people are. It’s just dreadful. If they do a drama for 2 hours, they have to have 7 acts to fit the commercials. I don’t even watch it. I just watch the news, and that’s no good (laughs).


You did MARCUS WELBY…


Yes, but the most revolutionary music for television was COMBAT.


You did a show called HOLMES AND YOYO…


I did? When did I do that?


(Checking my papers) In 1976. It was a show about a policeman who had a robot as partner.


Oh! Dreadful! It was a pilot. I thought it was a wonderful idea, but it was not done well.


What happened on the film THE LAST HARD MEN?


They threw out the score. The director Andrew V. McLaglen asked me to score it. I thought the film was dreadful and he showed it with temporary avant-garde music. It was crazy. I finally did it and it was the wildest way-out music and they threw it out and put in a guitar thing (track music by Jerry Goldsmith). He asked me to write avant-garde music and then threw it out!


There are very few CD’s with your film music.


This coming year you will have a lot of them: EDEN, REBEL, FANTASTIC VOYAGE and BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES. Also several concert pieces: a violin concerto, a string quartet, a double concerto and, I hope, Foci II.

by Pascal Dupont 10 May, 2024
Charles Allan Gerhardt English version adapted by Doug Raynes - FRENCH VERSION AND COLLECTION had a reputation as a great conductor, record producer and musical arranger. His major work at RCA on the Classic Film Scores series earned him recognition from film music devotees of Hollywood’s Golden Age, as well as other renowned conductors of his day. Born on February 6, 1927 in Detroit, Michigan, Charles Gerhardt developed a passion for music and percussion instruments from an early age. At the age of five, he took piano lessons, and by the age of nine, had established a solid reputation as an orchestrator and composer. He spent his early school years in Little Rock, Arkansas, then after 10 years, having completed his schooling, moved with his family to Illinois for his military duties, he served in the U.S. Navy during World War II as a chaplain's aide in the Aleutian Islands, then became an active member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. He went on to study at the University of Illinois, at the College of William and Mary, and later at the University of Southern California. Throughout his time at school Gerhardt was attracted not only to music, but also to the sciences. Passionate about the art of recording, he joined Westminster Records for five years, until the company ceased operations, and then joined Bell Sound. One day, he received a phone call from George Marek to meet with the heads of Reader's Digest, to discuss producing recordings for their mail-order record business; a contact that was to secure his musical future and a rich career spanning more than 30 years. Gerhardt's first job for Reader's Digest was to produce a record; “A Festival of Light Classical Music”; a 12 LP box set that he produced in full. One of Gerhardt's finest projects was the production of another 12 LP box set, “Les Trésores de la Grande Musique (Treasury of Great Music)”, featuring the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by some of the leading figures of the day: Charles Munch to Bizet and Tchaikovsky, Rudolf Kempe to Strauss and Respighi, Josef Krips to Mozart and Haydn, Antal Dorati to Strauss and Berlioz, Brahms 4th Symphony by Fritz Reiner and Sibelius’ 2nd Symphony by Sir John Barbirolli. In the 1950s he conducted works by Vladimir Horowitz, Wanda Landowska, Kirsten Flagstad and William Kapeli. In the early 1960s, Gerhardt lived in England, where he made most of his recordings, but kept a foothold in the United States, mainly in New York. Often, when he went to the United States after a period of recording sessions, he would stop off in Baltimore and spend some time listening to cassettes of his new recordings. Gerhardt loved percussion instruments, especially tam-tams. One of his favorite recordings was the Columbia mono disc of Scriabin's Poem of Ecstasy, with Dimitri Mitropoulos and the New York Philharmonic. He had great admiration and respect for the many conductors he worked with, starting with Arturo Toscanini, with whom he worked for several years before the Maestro's death. It was Toscanini who suggested that Gerhardt become a conductor, which he did! His career as an orchestra director began when he had to replace a conductor who failed to show up for rehearsals. It was a position he would later occupy for various recording sessions and occasional concerts. His classical recordings include works by Richard Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Ravel, Debussy, Walton and Howard Hanson. Hired by RCA Records, he transferred 78 rpm recordings of Enrico Caruso and other artists to 33 rpm. He took part in recordings by soprano singer Kirsten Flagstad and pianist Vladimir Horowitz. He worked with renowned conductors such as Fritz Reiner, Leopold Stokowski and Charles Munch, from whom he learned the tricks of the trade. Still at RCA, he assisted Arturo Toscanini, with whom he perfected his conducting skills. Then, in 1960, he produced recordings for RCA and Reader’s Digest in London, and joined forces with sound engineer Kenneth Wilkinson of Decca Records (RCA's European subsidiary), The two men got on very well and shared a passion for recording and sound quality, making an incredible number of recordings over a 30-year period. Also in 1960, RCA and Reader's Digest entrusted him with the production of a 12-disc LP box set entitled “ Lumière du Classique (A Festival of Light Classical Music) ”, sold exclusively by mail order. With a budget of $250,000, Gerhardt assumed total control of the project: repertoire, choice of orchestras and production. He recorded in London, Vienna and Paris, and hired such top names as Sir Adrian Boult, Massimo Freccia, Sir Alexander Gibson and René Leibowitz. The success of this project, in terms of both musical quality and sound, earned him recognition from his employers. Other projects of similar scope followed… A boxed set of Beethoven's symphonic works with René Leibowitz and The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. A boxed set of Rachmaninoff's works for piano and orchestra with Earl Wild, Jascha Horenstein and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, the above mentioned 12 LP disc set “Trésor de la Grande Musique (Treasury of Great Music)” with the Royal Philharmonic conducted by some of the greatest directors of the time: Fritz Reiner, Charles Munch, Rudolf Kempe, Sir John Barbirolli, Sir Malcolm Sargent, Antal Dorati and Jascha Horenstein, with whom Gerhardt had sympathized. In January 1964 in London, Gerhardt joined forces with Sidney Sax, instrumentalist and conductor, to form a freelance orchestra. This successful group went on to join the National Philharmonic Orchestra of London, an impressive line-up that would later become Jerry Goldsmith's orchestra of choice. With Peter Munves, head of RCA's classical division, he conceived the idea of recording an album devoted exclusively to the film music of Erich Wolfgang Korngold, one of his favorite composers. Enthusiastic about the project, Munves gave Gerhardt carte blanche, and was offered a helping hand by George Korngold, producer and son of the famous Viennese composer, who owned all the copies of his father's scores. The Adventure Began : The Sea Hawk: Classic Film Scores of Erich Wolfgang Korngold. For this first disc, Gerhardt selected 10 scores by Korngold, which he recorded in the Kingsway Hall Studio in London, renowned for its excellent acoustics. The disc thus benefits from optimal recording conditions, favoring at the same time the performances of the National Philharmonic (and its leader, Sidney Sax), a formidable orchestra made up of London's finest musicians and freelance soloists. Each album was recorded in the same studio, with Kenneth Wilkinson as sound engineer and George Korngold as consultant/producer. As soon as it was released, the album's success received strong acclaim in classical music circles and received a feature in Billboard No. 37, a first in this category in December 1972. It took no less than a year to sell the first 10,000 copies in all the specialist record suppliers and the album went on to sell over 38,000 copies, making it the fifth best-selling album in the “classical” category in 1973. On the strength of this success, Peter Munves and RCA entrusted Charles Gerhardt with the production of further discs devoted to other world-renowned composers of Hollywood music. The program includes several albums dedicated to Max Steiner and Erich Wolfgang Korngold plus one each to Miklos Rozsa, Franz Waxman, Dimitri Tiomkin and Bernard Herrmann, followed by 3 volumes associated with specific film stars such as Bette Davis, Errol Flynn and Humphrey Bogart. Then, a disc devoted to Alfred Newman, a composer who was a pillar of the famous Hollywood sound, who Gerhardt admired and had met: “Newman was a charming man, full of good humor. He was friendly, fun and always had a joke. With his eternal black cigar in hand, he was a composer by trade, down-to-earth, discussed little about himself but was a first-rate advisor in my life. “ Gerhardt would consult certain composers in advance about how to recreate suites from their works, or when this wasn't possible, he would rearrange the suites himself and submit them to the composers for approval. "Some critics complained that my suites were too short, but my aim in the case of each album was to present a well-split 'portrait' of the composer, highlighting his many creative facets". Although Korngold, Newman and Steiner were no longer around to lend their support, Gerhardt was lucky enough to still work with Herrmann, Rózsa and Tiomkin as consultants who turned up at the recording studio to lend a hand. Gerhardt also had the idea of creating albums focusing on a single film star. Three specific volumes were devoted to music from the films of Humphrey Bogart, Errol Flynn and Bette Davis. Although these albums suffer from too great a diversity of genres, they still offer the chance to hear and discover rare and previously unpublished compositions. The best conceived album was arguably the one devoted to Bette Davis. Conscious of the important role played by music in her films, the legendary actress took part in the conception of the album, knowing that it favored scores by Max Steiner designed for Warner Bros. The Collection Begins ! Gerhardt's passion for certain composers knows no bounds, but he soon envisages a disc devoted to Miklos Rozsa, including suites for “Spellbound” and “The Red House”, one of his favorite scores, which he will exhume to create one of the longest suites in the series. At the same time, he received various fan wish lists and films to watch, such as “The Four Feathers”, which he had never seen and which gave him the opportunity to discover a splendid score by Miklos Rozsa that he had never heard before. He was disappointed, however, not to be able to conceive a longer “Spellbound” sequel for rights reasons. Despite RCA's full approval, Gerhardt realized that it was not easy to record film music in its original form, as few were ever edited, played and made available for rental. For The Sea Hawks album, things were simpler, as Georges Korngold had copies of his father's scores, and Warner Bros had also archived material in good condition. From the outset, Gerhardt encountered other major problems in the search for and discovery of scores hidden away in other studios, often with the unpleasant surprise of discovering missing or incomplete conductors, or others heavily modified by orchestrators during recording sessions, or the surprise of discovering, in certain cases, instrumentation information noted in shorthand on the edges of the conductor score. For the disc dedicated to Max Steiner, for example, the conductor score for “King Kong” had disappeared from the RKO archives, having been shipped in 1950 to poorly maintained warehouses in Los Angeles where it had become totally degraded and illegible. With the help of Georges Korngold, Gerhardt was able to reconstruct a substantial suite from the piano models left by Steiner at the time. This experience was repeated when the conductor score for Dimitri Tiomkin's “The Thing” was discovered in the same warehouse, in an advanced state of disintegration. Fortunately for Gerhardt, Tiomkin, who was still alive, had been able to provide precise piano maquettes with orchestration information in shorthand, revealing a complex and highly innovative style of writing. Tiomkin always composed at the piano, inscribing very specific information and signs on the edges of the scores in pencil, an ingenious system of his own invention that was difficult to decipher. “Revisiting the score of ‘The Thing from Another World’ was a complex task, involving experimental passages and an unorthodox orchestra. You can understand that I had a huge job on my hands. When I approached the recording sessions, it was not without some trepidation. However, the composer present made no criticism or comment on my work, and was delighted. He was delighted.” For “Gone With The Wind”, Steiner was against the idea of remaking a complete soundtrack, as he felt that too many passages were repeated. It was an opportunity for him to revisit his own score, integrating his favorite melodies. This synthesis gave him the opportunity to revitalize his music by eliminating the least interesting parts of the score. Conceived as long suites or isolated themes, the discs reflect the essence of the composers' work. The “Classic Film Scores” series by Franz Waxman, Bernard Herrmann and Miklos Rozsa etc will become a big hit with collectors. For Gerhardt, this will be an opportunity to unearth forgotten or rare scores such as Herrmann's “The White Witch” and “On a Dangerous Ground”, Hugo Friedhofer's “The Sun Also Rises” and early recordings for Waxman's “Prince Valliant” and Rozsa's “The Red House”, all with new, impeccable acoustics. For “Elisabeth and Essex”, Erich Korngold had already prepared a suite in the form of an Overture, which was given its world premiere in a theater. The suite for “The Adventures of Robin Hood” also pre-existed. Franz Waxman created his own suite for “A Place in the Sun”, which was also performed in concert. Dimitri Tiomkin, Miklos Rozsa and Bernard Herrmann acted as consultants and contributed arrangements to their scores. For the continuation of “White Witch Doctor”, Bernard Herrman added percussion to link the different musical tableaux. He did the same for the different parts of “Citizen Kane”. Miklos Rozsa saw an opportunity to add a male choir to the suite from “The Jungle Book”, based on an idea by Charles Gerhardt. For the record dedicated to Errol Flynn, Gerhardt re-orchestrated the theme “The Lights of Paris” from Hugo Friedhofer's “The Sun also Rises”, as the original was no longer available. “I wanted to go back to that time and systematically explore the very substance of the great film scores of the late 30s and 40s, sending them back directly to their images as dramatic entities. The desire to rediscover tunes we know and to take into account the contexts in which they were originally used. I decided to recreate these scores with their original orchestrations, and this could only be done by returning to the ultimate sources, as the composers had originally conceived them.” Keen to open up the collection to other genres, such as science fiction, Gerhardt dedicated two further albums to the series in 1992. The first featured contemporary sequels to “Star Wars” and “Close Encounters of the Third Kind”, promoting the work of John Williams, a leading composer of new film music. Then another called “The Spectacular World of Classic Film Scores”, presenting a disappointing compilation of scores that had already been recorded, except for the creation of a sequel to Dimitri Tiomkin's “The Thing From Another World” and Daniele Amfitheatrof's rarely heard theme “Dance of the Seven Voiles” from Salome. In 1978, the collection was published in Spain by RCA Cinema Treasures. In the USA and Europe, the Classic Film Scores LP series was reissued in the early 80s with a black art deco cover and colored star index. All Volumes in the First Series Were Reissued : By the end of the '80s, the series was running out of steam, and Charles Gerhardt planned to relaunch his collection with albums dedicated to famous American actresses, a new volume for Max Steiner and the Western, a volume reconstructing the score of Waxman's “The Bride of Frankenstein”, followed by volumes devoted to Alex North, Hugo Friedhofer, Victor Young and Elmer Bernstein... But RCA would not support Gerhardt in these projects, preferring to release the collection on CD for the first time. In early 1990, RCA asked Gerhardt to supervise and co-produce the collection, which he saw as an opportunity to revisit some of the volumes, inserting tracks that had not appeared on the LPs or extending certain suites. The volume devoted to Franz Waxman, “Sunset Boulevard”, was the first to be released. The CD did not benefit from any particular promotion, but sold very well, as did the other CDs that followed... A collection marked by a new design in silver pantone. The CDs series was reissued in 2010, still under the RCA Red Seal label, but distributed by Sony Music Entertainment. RCA Victor's Classic Films Scores series represents a unique collection in the history of film music recordings. 14 recordings of rare quality, produced by Georges Korngold and Charles Gerhardt to become one of the revelations of the reissue phenomenon. Other Concepts... Later, Gerhardt spent most of his time in London, continuing to make recordings. After retiring from RCA in 1986, he returned to independent work for Readers Digest and other record labels, a position he held in production and musical supervision until 1997. Since 1991 he had lived in Redding, California. In later years, he did not appear professionally, refusing all public invitations because of his desire to remain discreet. In his entourage he was close to three cousins, Lenore L Engel and Elizabeth Anne Schuetze, both living in San Antonio, and cousin Steven W Gerhardt of St. Pete Beach, Florida. In late November 1998 Charles Gerhardt was diagnosed with brain cancer and died of complications following surgery on February 22, 1999. He was 72 years old. Thus ends this tribute to Charles Gerhardt and the most famous collection of film music records: The Classic Film Scores series.
by Doug Raynes 24 Jan, 2024
Following on from Tadlow’s epic recording of El Cid, the same team – Nic Raine conducting and James Fitzpatrick producing – have turned their attention to a completely different type of epic film for the definitive recording of Ernest Gold’s Academy Award winning score for Otto Preminger’s Exodus (1960). The score is something of a revelation because aside from the main theme, the music has received little attention through recordings. Additionally the sound quality of the original soundtrack LP was disappointing and much music was deleted or cut from the film.
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