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A Conversation with David Shire

David Kraft

A Conversation with David Shire by David Kraft


Originally published in CinemaScore #13/14, 1985


Text reproduced by kind permission of the editor and publisher, Randall D. Larson

David Shire’s name is prominently featured in the credits of “2010” but, as it turns out, it isn’t a score for which Shire would like to take much credit. Film music buffs are aware of many scores that have been totally rejected and replaced by other scores, but unless a composer speaks out one never really knows how much or how little of the composer’s intention ends up in a film’s final release. In the case of 2010, executive manipulation dampened much of Shire’s intentions for the film’s score. In an attempt to set the record straight on 2010, Mr. Shire agreed to the following interview. We talked at his Sherman Oaks, California, home at the end of March, enough time after 2010’s December 1984 release to allow for some perspective.


I guess the best place to start is at the beginning. Tony Banks, of the rock group Genesis, had first been signed to score 2010. How did you become involved?


I was on vacation when I got a call from my agents telling me to hurry back to town since director Peter Hyams was changing composers on 2010 and had asked about my availability. I had mixed feelings about doing it, even at the beginning. It was supposed to be a “Big movie” but I’m a little suspicious when another composer has worked for six months and it hasn’t worked out. Also, doing a sequel to a classic film with a classic score is something to be wary of. However, I felt I should at least go and talk to Peter. So I met with him and he told me how he’d worked with Banks for a long time and when some actual cues came in they were not what he wanted. That’s all I know about Tony Banks’ involvement.


Peter told me that it was a given that “Zarathustra” would open the movie and come in at the climax of the last cue. However, he did want a “2010 Theme” which we eventually called the “New Worlds Theme.” He wanted me to write an electronic score yet one that was “orchestral” – in other words not a futuristic or highly abstract electronic score but more like the Tomita/Vangelis school, using electronic instruments to get a rich, quasi-orchestral sound. It seemed like a reasonably good idea at the time. I did ask about doing an all-orchestral score but Hyams felt the score needed a bit of the “other-worldliness” that electronic realization would evoke. Also, this type of score would allow him to hear the work as it progressed, and this was important to him – he wanted that kind of on-going editorial control.


I had a good deal of experience working on this kind of electronic score when I worked for a couple of years on APOCALYPSE NOW (my score wasn’t used) so it wasn’t a strange area to me. But perhaps I was a little naive to think I could write a theme that would supplant “Zarathustra” in any way, and since the new theme I wrote was used so little in the movie, and not in the way I intended, there was really no contest.

Since you’re not known as a composer of electronic music, why did Hyams ask for you?


I asked Hyams at the outset why he’d come to me, and he said he liked my scores for THE CONVERSATION, THE TAKING OF PELHAM 1,2,3 and ALL THE PRESIDENT’S MEN. He considers himself a real student of film scoring and is an amateur musician himself, so music is near and dear to him.


I was really torn whether or not to do the picture, but I have a ground rule that if it’s a toss-up between “yes” and “no”, it’s better to say “yes”. If you say “no” you never know what you might have been able to do. However, as it turned out, this was one of the least happy experiences I’ve had scoring a picture. It was long and hard work, which is okay, except the results were not anything like I’d intended. The album is the only record of what Craig Huxley and I set out to do as far as the whole score is concerned, as an integral piece of work.


How did the score develop?


First I had to pick a producer-synthesist collaborator and I eventually decided on Craig Huxley, after considering several possibilities. I’d worked with him briefly on a few projects and he and I are interested in many of the same areas of math, philosophy and music, plus I’ve admired his musicianship ever since he was a child jazz prodigy. The happiest part of working on 2010 was working with Craig. If he hadn’t been so congenial and such a good “psychiatrist” for me along the way I don’t know if I would have made it.


After Craig was set we worked on two major cues which would be “prototypes” for the rest of the score. We tried to find a “sound” for the film and spent a lot of time with Peter finding out anything he liked and didn’t like. Anything, for instance, that started to get too “electronic sounding” was rejected.


I felt the film was a two-theme movie, the first being the “New Worlds” theme which is expressive of the magic and mystery of the journey and what the astronauts are looking for even though they’re not sure what they’ll find. The second theme is the “Bowman” material. I felt the variations on the New Worlds theme should be heard first, progressively getting closer to the theme’s full statement at the end when the planet comes alive. That’s where the orchestral version comes in and is the only complete, out-and-out statement of the theme. Also, I was trying to find a way to link “Zarathustra” and my score. Peter kept telling me to forget about that, but I felt the score should at least try to have that consistency. If you begin with “Zarathustra” you need a score that has some relation to it.


For part of the Bowman material, Craig and I came up with what we refer to as the “morally-neutral third,” suggested by the fact that one point of the “Zarathustra” theme is the alternation of major and minor triads which sort of asks the musical question, to put it simplistically: “is the universe bad or is it good?” The triad we came up with has a third half-way between a major and a minor one and this makes for nice tension without sounding too ominous. Also, the “Bowman” theme itself uses 4 triads in different alternations, 2 major and 2 minor, that together use all 12 tones once each – another musical metaphor that links with the “Zarathustra” theme. However, not much of the New Worlds theme’s development ended up in the movie in a very hearable form. I had a ground plan for the whole score but I’m afraid you wouldn’t know it from seeing and hearing the movie – the music was so buried or fragmented. There was supposed to be a progression.


One of the first major cues we tackled was the “Probe” sequence which ran about four minutes (it’s the sequence where the first probe vehicle is sent down and there’s a flash of light – the suspense builds as the crew is huddled over the instruments). I was very happy with how that cue came out and I played it for Peter. He then told me he had decided now not to use music for that scene, just effects. He didn’t even try it at the dubbing. I don’t want this to sound like the usual sour grapes. Generally my collaborations with directors have been very good. I love to collaborate and am always playing material for directors whether they ask to hear it or not, but the collaboration with Peter was strange. We had worked very closely together every cue was played for him, every change he wanted was made. He seemed to be a fan of the score. That’s why I expected more of the score to end up in the final picture – and that’s why I was so disappointed when I went to the preview screening and heard the end result.


The reason I feel more of the score should have been used – cues like the probe sequence, for instance – is that I think it would have helped the picture dramatically. From the many reviews I’ve read of the film, most critics felt as I did, that from the start it was too “cold” and that one didn’t get involved with the characters enough. I tried to help that with the score. But Hyams cut out a lot of what I did in favor of an elaborate sound effects track. He was intent on using a lot of these effects from the beginning, including the sound of the humpback whale. I told him this was a sound I’ve heard in at least five other movies and it wasn’t as effective or mysterious as he thought since a lot of people are familiar with it. I couldn’t sway his thinking.


My main bone of contention is that Hyams took the tapes we gave him which contained (as he’d requested) all the separate elements we’d layed down (as well as the total mix) and, in effect, “re-composed” the score by using only certain tracks – not the complete mix we’d delivered. For example, on some cues he used only the bass line, and on others he’d only use a high, sustained sound so it sounded like a television score where the composer didn’t have enough time to do any better. I feel, as it stands now, the score has no unity and, except for the “Bowman” cue and the ending, it was pretty much decimated.


What do you think you’ve learned from this experience?


Well, if I had it to do all over again I’d try to do a mixed orchestral and synthesizer score, like Arthur B. Rubinstein did so very well in BLUE THUNDER. It’s hard to find a really fresh way to approach a purely electronic score. An orchestra might have better helped add warmth to the film, and it might have had a better chance with all the effects. I did like the idea of suddenly bringing in a real orchestra for the first time when the planet comes alive, but you heard so little of the preceding electronic part of the score that I don’t think it had the intended contrasting effect.


Also, you have to be very careful how you mix even simple electronic music with heavy effects. Otherwise you blot out that part of the sound spectrum, the harmonics, that makes the music sound special, leaving mainly the fundamentals, which sounds flat. Using an orchestra as well as synthesizers, I could have written more elaborate music when I felt it was needed, and it might have come off better in conjunction with all of Peter’s effects.


I learned a long time ago that when writing for synthesizers you need to write much more simply – three or four lines at the most. If you write more than that it starts sounding like an ice-skating rink organ.

by Pascal Dupont 10 May, 2024
Charles Allan Gerhardt English version adapted by Doug Raynes - FRENCH VERSION AND COLLECTION had a reputation as a great conductor, record producer and musical arranger. His major work at RCA on the Classic Film Scores series earned him recognition from film music devotees of Hollywood’s Golden Age, as well as other renowned conductors of his day. Born on February 6, 1927 in Detroit, Michigan, Charles Gerhardt developed a passion for music and percussion instruments from an early age. At the age of five, he took piano lessons, and by the age of nine, had established a solid reputation as an orchestrator and composer. He spent his early school years in Little Rock, Arkansas, then after 10 years, having completed his schooling, moved with his family to Illinois for his military duties, he served in the U.S. Navy during World War II as a chaplain's aide in the Aleutian Islands, then became an active member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. He went on to study at the University of Illinois, at the College of William and Mary, and later at the University of Southern California. Throughout his time at school Gerhardt was attracted not only to music, but also to the sciences. Passionate about the art of recording, he joined Westminster Records for five years, until the company ceased operations, and then joined Bell Sound. One day, he received a phone call from George Marek to meet with the heads of Reader's Digest, to discuss producing recordings for their mail-order record business; a contact that was to secure his musical future and a rich career spanning more than 30 years. Gerhardt's first job for Reader's Digest was to produce a record; “A Festival of Light Classical Music”; a 12 LP box set that he produced in full. One of Gerhardt's finest projects was the production of another 12 LP box set, “Les Trésores de la Grande Musique (Treasury of Great Music)”, featuring the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by some of the leading figures of the day: Charles Munch to Bizet and Tchaikovsky, Rudolf Kempe to Strauss and Respighi, Josef Krips to Mozart and Haydn, Antal Dorati to Strauss and Berlioz, Brahms 4th Symphony by Fritz Reiner and Sibelius’ 2nd Symphony by Sir John Barbirolli. In the 1950s he conducted works by Vladimir Horowitz, Wanda Landowska, Kirsten Flagstad and William Kapeli. In the early 1960s, Gerhardt lived in England, where he made most of his recordings, but kept a foothold in the United States, mainly in New York. Often, when he went to the United States after a period of recording sessions, he would stop off in Baltimore and spend some time listening to cassettes of his new recordings. Gerhardt loved percussion instruments, especially tam-tams. One of his favorite recordings was the Columbia mono disc of Scriabin's Poem of Ecstasy, with Dimitri Mitropoulos and the New York Philharmonic. He had great admiration and respect for the many conductors he worked with, starting with Arturo Toscanini, with whom he worked for several years before the Maestro's death. It was Toscanini who suggested that Gerhardt become a conductor, which he did! His career as an orchestra director began when he had to replace a conductor who failed to show up for rehearsals. It was a position he would later occupy for various recording sessions and occasional concerts. His classical recordings include works by Richard Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Ravel, Debussy, Walton and Howard Hanson. Hired by RCA Records, he transferred 78 rpm recordings of Enrico Caruso and other artists to 33 rpm. He took part in recordings by soprano singer Kirsten Flagstad and pianist Vladimir Horowitz. He worked with renowned conductors such as Fritz Reiner, Leopold Stokowski and Charles Munch, from whom he learned the tricks of the trade. Still at RCA, he assisted Arturo Toscanini, with whom he perfected his conducting skills. Then, in 1960, he produced recordings for RCA and Reader’s Digest in London, and joined forces with sound engineer Kenneth Wilkinson of Decca Records (RCA's European subsidiary), The two men got on very well and shared a passion for recording and sound quality, making an incredible number of recordings over a 30-year period. Also in 1960, RCA and Reader's Digest entrusted him with the production of a 12-disc LP box set entitled “ Lumière du Classique (A Festival of Light Classical Music) ”, sold exclusively by mail order. With a budget of $250,000, Gerhardt assumed total control of the project: repertoire, choice of orchestras and production. He recorded in London, Vienna and Paris, and hired such top names as Sir Adrian Boult, Massimo Freccia, Sir Alexander Gibson and René Leibowitz. The success of this project, in terms of both musical quality and sound, earned him recognition from his employers. Other projects of similar scope followed… A boxed set of Beethoven's symphonic works with René Leibowitz and The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. A boxed set of Rachmaninoff's works for piano and orchestra with Earl Wild, Jascha Horenstein and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, the above mentioned 12 LP disc set “Trésor de la Grande Musique (Treasury of Great Music)” with the Royal Philharmonic conducted by some of the greatest directors of the time: Fritz Reiner, Charles Munch, Rudolf Kempe, Sir John Barbirolli, Sir Malcolm Sargent, Antal Dorati and Jascha Horenstein, with whom Gerhardt had sympathized. In January 1964 in London, Gerhardt joined forces with Sidney Sax, instrumentalist and conductor, to form a freelance orchestra. This successful group went on to join the National Philharmonic Orchestra of London, an impressive line-up that would later become Jerry Goldsmith's orchestra of choice. With Peter Munves, head of RCA's classical division, he conceived the idea of recording an album devoted exclusively to the film music of Erich Wolfgang Korngold, one of his favorite composers. Enthusiastic about the project, Munves gave Gerhardt carte blanche, and was offered a helping hand by George Korngold, producer and son of the famous Viennese composer, who owned all the copies of his father's scores. The Adventure Began : The Sea Hawk: Classic Film Scores of Erich Wolfgang Korngold. For this first disc, Gerhardt selected 10 scores by Korngold, which he recorded in the Kingsway Hall Studio in London, renowned for its excellent acoustics. The disc thus benefits from optimal recording conditions, favoring at the same time the performances of the National Philharmonic (and its leader, Sidney Sax), a formidable orchestra made up of London's finest musicians and freelance soloists. Each album was recorded in the same studio, with Kenneth Wilkinson as sound engineer and George Korngold as consultant/producer. As soon as it was released, the album's success received strong acclaim in classical music circles and received a feature in Billboard No. 37, a first in this category in December 1972. It took no less than a year to sell the first 10,000 copies in all the specialist record suppliers and the album went on to sell over 38,000 copies, making it the fifth best-selling album in the “classical” category in 1973. On the strength of this success, Peter Munves and RCA entrusted Charles Gerhardt with the production of further discs devoted to other world-renowned composers of Hollywood music. The program includes several albums dedicated to Max Steiner and Erich Wolfgang Korngold plus one each to Miklos Rozsa, Franz Waxman, Dimitri Tiomkin and Bernard Herrmann, followed by 3 volumes associated with specific film stars such as Bette Davis, Errol Flynn and Humphrey Bogart. Then, a disc devoted to Alfred Newman, a composer who was a pillar of the famous Hollywood sound, who Gerhardt admired and had met: “Newman was a charming man, full of good humor. He was friendly, fun and always had a joke. With his eternal black cigar in hand, he was a composer by trade, down-to-earth, discussed little about himself but was a first-rate advisor in my life. “ Gerhardt would consult certain composers in advance about how to recreate suites from their works, or when this wasn't possible, he would rearrange the suites himself and submit them to the composers for approval. "Some critics complained that my suites were too short, but my aim in the case of each album was to present a well-split 'portrait' of the composer, highlighting his many creative facets". Although Korngold, Newman and Steiner were no longer around to lend their support, Gerhardt was lucky enough to still work with Herrmann, Rózsa and Tiomkin as consultants who turned up at the recording studio to lend a hand. Gerhardt also had the idea of creating albums focusing on a single film star. Three specific volumes were devoted to music from the films of Humphrey Bogart, Errol Flynn and Bette Davis. Although these albums suffer from too great a diversity of genres, they still offer the chance to hear and discover rare and previously unpublished compositions. The best conceived album was arguably the one devoted to Bette Davis. Conscious of the important role played by music in her films, the legendary actress took part in the conception of the album, knowing that it favored scores by Max Steiner designed for Warner Bros. The Collection Begins ! Gerhardt's passion for certain composers knows no bounds, but he soon envisages a disc devoted to Miklos Rozsa, including suites for “Spellbound” and “The Red House”, one of his favorite scores, which he will exhume to create one of the longest suites in the series. At the same time, he received various fan wish lists and films to watch, such as “The Four Feathers”, which he had never seen and which gave him the opportunity to discover a splendid score by Miklos Rozsa that he had never heard before. He was disappointed, however, not to be able to conceive a longer “Spellbound” sequel for rights reasons. Despite RCA's full approval, Gerhardt realized that it was not easy to record film music in its original form, as few were ever edited, played and made available for rental. For The Sea Hawks album, things were simpler, as Georges Korngold had copies of his father's scores, and Warner Bros had also archived material in good condition. From the outset, Gerhardt encountered other major problems in the search for and discovery of scores hidden away in other studios, often with the unpleasant surprise of discovering missing or incomplete conductors, or others heavily modified by orchestrators during recording sessions, or the surprise of discovering, in certain cases, instrumentation information noted in shorthand on the edges of the conductor score. For the disc dedicated to Max Steiner, for example, the conductor score for “King Kong” had disappeared from the RKO archives, having been shipped in 1950 to poorly maintained warehouses in Los Angeles where it had become totally degraded and illegible. With the help of Georges Korngold, Gerhardt was able to reconstruct a substantial suite from the piano models left by Steiner at the time. This experience was repeated when the conductor score for Dimitri Tiomkin's “The Thing” was discovered in the same warehouse, in an advanced state of disintegration. Fortunately for Gerhardt, Tiomkin, who was still alive, had been able to provide precise piano maquettes with orchestration information in shorthand, revealing a complex and highly innovative style of writing. Tiomkin always composed at the piano, inscribing very specific information and signs on the edges of the scores in pencil, an ingenious system of his own invention that was difficult to decipher. “Revisiting the score of ‘The Thing from Another World’ was a complex task, involving experimental passages and an unorthodox orchestra. You can understand that I had a huge job on my hands. When I approached the recording sessions, it was not without some trepidation. However, the composer present made no criticism or comment on my work, and was delighted. He was delighted.” For “Gone With The Wind”, Steiner was against the idea of remaking a complete soundtrack, as he felt that too many passages were repeated. It was an opportunity for him to revisit his own score, integrating his favorite melodies. This synthesis gave him the opportunity to revitalize his music by eliminating the least interesting parts of the score. Conceived as long suites or isolated themes, the discs reflect the essence of the composers' work. The “Classic Film Scores” series by Franz Waxman, Bernard Herrmann and Miklos Rozsa etc will become a big hit with collectors. For Gerhardt, this will be an opportunity to unearth forgotten or rare scores such as Herrmann's “The White Witch” and “On a Dangerous Ground”, Hugo Friedhofer's “The Sun Also Rises” and early recordings for Waxman's “Prince Valliant” and Rozsa's “The Red House”, all with new, impeccable acoustics. For “Elisabeth and Essex”, Erich Korngold had already prepared a suite in the form of an Overture, which was given its world premiere in a theater. The suite for “The Adventures of Robin Hood” also pre-existed. Franz Waxman created his own suite for “A Place in the Sun”, which was also performed in concert. Dimitri Tiomkin, Miklos Rozsa and Bernard Herrmann acted as consultants and contributed arrangements to their scores. For the continuation of “White Witch Doctor”, Bernard Herrman added percussion to link the different musical tableaux. He did the same for the different parts of “Citizen Kane”. Miklos Rozsa saw an opportunity to add a male choir to the suite from “The Jungle Book”, based on an idea by Charles Gerhardt. For the record dedicated to Errol Flynn, Gerhardt re-orchestrated the theme “The Lights of Paris” from Hugo Friedhofer's “The Sun also Rises”, as the original was no longer available. “I wanted to go back to that time and systematically explore the very substance of the great film scores of the late 30s and 40s, sending them back directly to their images as dramatic entities. The desire to rediscover tunes we know and to take into account the contexts in which they were originally used. I decided to recreate these scores with their original orchestrations, and this could only be done by returning to the ultimate sources, as the composers had originally conceived them.” Keen to open up the collection to other genres, such as science fiction, Gerhardt dedicated two further albums to the series in 1992. The first featured contemporary sequels to “Star Wars” and “Close Encounters of the Third Kind”, promoting the work of John Williams, a leading composer of new film music. Then another called “The Spectacular World of Classic Film Scores”, presenting a disappointing compilation of scores that had already been recorded, except for the creation of a sequel to Dimitri Tiomkin's “The Thing From Another World” and Daniele Amfitheatrof's rarely heard theme “Dance of the Seven Voiles” from Salome. In 1978, the collection was published in Spain by RCA Cinema Treasures. In the USA and Europe, the Classic Film Scores LP series was reissued in the early 80s with a black art deco cover and colored star index. All Volumes in the First Series Were Reissued : By the end of the '80s, the series was running out of steam, and Charles Gerhardt planned to relaunch his collection with albums dedicated to famous American actresses, a new volume for Max Steiner and the Western, a volume reconstructing the score of Waxman's “The Bride of Frankenstein”, followed by volumes devoted to Alex North, Hugo Friedhofer, Victor Young and Elmer Bernstein... But RCA would not support Gerhardt in these projects, preferring to release the collection on CD for the first time. In early 1990, RCA asked Gerhardt to supervise and co-produce the collection, which he saw as an opportunity to revisit some of the volumes, inserting tracks that had not appeared on the LPs or extending certain suites. The volume devoted to Franz Waxman, “Sunset Boulevard”, was the first to be released. The CD did not benefit from any particular promotion, but sold very well, as did the other CDs that followed... A collection marked by a new design in silver pantone. The CDs series was reissued in 2010, still under the RCA Red Seal label, but distributed by Sony Music Entertainment. RCA Victor's Classic Films Scores series represents a unique collection in the history of film music recordings. 14 recordings of rare quality, produced by Georges Korngold and Charles Gerhardt to become one of the revelations of the reissue phenomenon. Other Concepts... Later, Gerhardt spent most of his time in London, continuing to make recordings. After retiring from RCA in 1986, he returned to independent work for Readers Digest and other record labels, a position he held in production and musical supervision until 1997. Since 1991 he had lived in Redding, California. In later years, he did not appear professionally, refusing all public invitations because of his desire to remain discreet. In his entourage he was close to three cousins, Lenore L Engel and Elizabeth Anne Schuetze, both living in San Antonio, and cousin Steven W Gerhardt of St. Pete Beach, Florida. In late November 1998 Charles Gerhardt was diagnosed with brain cancer and died of complications following surgery on February 22, 1999. He was 72 years old. Thus ends this tribute to Charles Gerhardt and the most famous collection of film music records: The Classic Film Scores series.
by Doug Raynes 24 Jan, 2024
Following on from Tadlow’s epic recording of El Cid, the same team – Nic Raine conducting and James Fitzpatrick producing – have turned their attention to a completely different type of epic film for the definitive recording of Ernest Gold’s Academy Award winning score for Otto Preminger’s Exodus (1960). The score is something of a revelation because aside from the main theme, the music has received little attention through recordings. Additionally the sound quality of the original soundtrack LP was disappointing and much music was deleted or cut from the film.
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